Inspiring Autonomy, Belonging, and Confidence with Sylvia van Meerten

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It’s all about kids today

I’m so excited to share this conversation with Sylvia—someone who has lived, led, and loved camp for years. Below are the biggest takeaways from our chat, packed with insights on what makes summer camp “the healthiest place ever” and how it shapes kids (and staff) in profound ways.

Sylvia van Meerten is a YPO Certified Forum Facilitator, owner of ForumWithin, CEO Coach, and overall bad ass mom. She’s sometimes my boss and always a great great friend. You are going to love this one.

Camp as “The Healthiest Job Ever”

Sylvia and I dove right into why camp is so special. It goes beyond just fresh air and sunshine—it’s about physical activity, social connection, and reflection all rolled into one. As Sylvia put it, camp creates a holistic environment where play, rest, and growth happen naturally.

Enthusiasm as a Skill

We tackled the idea that true enthusiasm is a learned skill, not just a personality trait. Sylvia, who typically dislikes “fake perkiness,” pointed out that genuine enthusiasm can be powerful when balanced with realness. At camp, staff learn to bring consistent energy in a way that feels authentic—but also professional.

Immersive Experiences Change Lives

Sylvia believes immersive experiences are key to transformation—whether it’s traveling abroad or living at camp for weeks on end. At camp, kids (and counselors) learn to navigate relationships and build new social “muscles.” The entire culture at camp supports growth, which is far more powerful than an hour-long “team-building” event back home.

Decision-Making: The Skill of the Future

We both agreed that decision-making—especially in a world increasingly run by AI—is vital. At camp, kids make countless daily choices, from which activity to try to how to resolve cabin conflicts. Because the stakes are safe but feel real, they build confidence in their own judgment—an essential skill for adult life.

Staff Training: Culture Over Curriculum

Sylvia highlighted that no matter how amazing your training materials are, it’s the culture that makes or breaks the staff experience. Bring in kind, committed people, give them tools, and model the behaviors you want. Camp’s tight-knit environment does the rest, reinforcing positive behaviors that resonate with campers.

Avoiding Mediocrity and “Just Okay”

We touched on the fact that, while most camps are generally great, mediocrity can creep in if leaders aren’t intentional. Sylvia encouraged parents to look beyond shiny websites and ask, “Who’s running this camp, and do they inspire me?” If the camp director’s vision lines up with your family’s values, that’s a strong sign of excellence.

Why Sylvia Sends Her Daughter to Camp

From her own experience, Sylvia knows that camp is a safer place to practice life’s big skills—making friends, navigating differences, and trying new things. She loves that her daughter comes home each summer standing a little taller, having learned not just archery or singing, but real-life negotiation and empathy.

A Place for Real Change

Ultimately, we agreed that camp is “the business of change.” In a low-stakes but high-support setting, kids become stronger, more self-aware, and more collaborative. Campers see what’s possible in themselves and in others, and that mindset shift can carry them through the rest of the year.

Thank you!

Huge thanks to Sylvia for this deep dive into what makes camp such a transformative experience. Whether you’re a parent, a director, or just a camp enthusiast, I hope this conversation inspires you to see camp as more than just fun in the sun—it’s a launching pad for healthier, more connected lives.

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It’s all about kids today

Jack Schott

Summer Camp Evangelist

Transcript:

Cabin Chat Ep 1

Sylvia: I can't wait to ask you about summer camp. This is a. Topic that, that we both really care about. And you have made a stunning career out of summer camping.

And I want to hear about it. Summer camp is like the healthiest place ever, the healthiest job ever. And you decided to make a career out of it, which a lot of people don't. So tell me, why did you decide to make a career out of summer camp? But first, why is it the healthiest place ever? The healthiest job ever?

Well, 

Jack: uh, so summer camp is the healthiest place on the planet. Period. Full stop. Uh, there's all these, you know, health guru, expertity type people, Peter Atiyah, Andrew Huberman, Tim Ferriss run around talking about how we need to take, you know, like 10, 000 steps a day and we need, uh, to Get 30 minutes of sunshine within 30 minutes of waking up.

And we need, um, healthy friend groups where we can, where we can laugh. And, um, we need to be active in these like micro energy bursts. Uh, it's like, they're just describing summer camp. They're describing spending your, uh, your time, uh, that, you know, they talk about like, uh, some version of meditation. It's like.

Every camp has something built in that is like a reflective period that maybe it isn't exactly meditation, but it's like If you squint your eyes, these guys are describing summer camp They're just 

Sylvia: singing together with people improves your connectivity and happiness, 

Jack: right? Like you I know you're you're always talking about entrainment and how we need to find ways to be connecting with each other on this like neurological level and singing In unison, like singing together around a campfire, literally our hearts beat as one.

And so, uh, summer camp is holds onto the kind of like. Ancient wisdom of sitting around the fire like, uh, like our ancestors did while also creating a place for play and kids to learn how to make decisions. And so it's like, it's both physically incredibly healthy environment as well as, um, psychologically, like this incredible.

Uh, space where kids can connect with each other, feel excited, be able to dream. I, uh, you know, I talk about this all the time where I have this, uh, belief that we are as a society, both stealing kids dreams, their ability to dream bigger while also not giving them the practical ability to make impacts in their, like the school system is not designed in such a way that kids dream bigger.

Or that they really get the most practical skills. And so we're in this weird middle ground and camp is, uh, at least a place for the ability to dream big. And I would make the argument that it's a place where the skills that we truly need for most of us. Are developed, uh, in, in a camp space. 

Sylvia: You know, that reminds me of how you, you say all the time that enthusiasm is a skill and you're also one of the most genuinely enthusiastic people I know, like in a way that I can actually tolerate, because you know, I'm pretty, so sarcastic, kind of salty.

I'm not into enthusiasm, like fake enthusiasm, but yours is real. And you talk about how it's a skill. How, tell me more about that. 

Jack: Enthusiasm is definitely a skill. Sometimes it's annoying. And I think it can be inspirational. So, uh, I, you know, I just interviewed Seth Godin and he talks about the difference between, um, being authentic and being consistent.

And he says, authenticity is for amateurs, which, you know, I struggle with a little bit, cause I'm like, I'm like, wait a minute, we can be a little bit more authentic. We can be our through lines, right? But he's like, and I think we can mince the words however we want. But his point is basically that authenticity is for amateurs because, uh, when you show up to a business and camp is a business, now we take care of kids and we connect with them in a real way.

I'm not going to cry to a seven year old about. Breaking up with my girlfriend or whatever. Like that is not the space. That is not the relationship that, 

Sylvia: and if you don't feel like being nice to your team, 

Jack: yeah, I don't get to, I don't get to authentically be rude to an eight year old. It's just not, that doesn't, I don't get to do that because I'm a professional, right?

So, uh, and the, and the camp staff are professionals and the, we ask our 18 year olds are 20 year olds to be professionals in this space, right? And to consistently show up. In a way that makes the community better, makes the kids lives better and is real. Like, uh, I don't want to ask an 18 year old and everyone can see through it when you show up and you like, sort of like, uh, have like pretend spaghetti arms and you're like, whatever.

And you, and you're, um, you're just being totally, Off the rails inauthentic like I'm not asking for that However, when you walk into a room if you walk into the room beforehand You just like kind of shake out a little bit and put a smile on your face Before you walk into the room, you can come into the room with some, uh, enthusiasm, right?

Like, uh, uh, Tony Robbins calls this honey, I'm home energy, right? Like if you think about, uh, like in the sitcoms from like the fifties or whatever that I didn't want, um, uh, like the way someone enters the room, the, the, the, the man comes home from work. It's always a man, blah, blah, blah. We can talk about that later.

But the idea is he opens the door and he says, honey, I'm home. And that's real, but you have to do some practice to get that to be real. Like, uh, And at camp, something that is true for me at camp, is that I'm almost always tired. That's 

Sylvia: okay. We could apply that to a lot of workplaces. 

Jack: Sleep away. Camp is tiring.

Work is work is tiring. Right. And so what I want to do is be real, show up and be able to be loud and bring the energy when it's appropriate. Um, and then also let the rest of the staff know, like I'm tired and, and it says re I am being real. I am really standing on the picnic table and, uh, jumping up and down and being excited, but also I'm tired because this is a job and I want to live up to it because it's important to me that the campers at camp have, uh, the experience that they're hoping for, which is full of growth and connection and they, their kids are striving to find, they're looking so hard for adults.

That care about them and are inspirational. 

Sylvia: I love that. And you know, in some ways what you said has so much nuance to it because you're, you're sort of making a demand that we raise our standards from either authentic or enthusiastic and you're saying, okay, some of both. And I think that's a reasonable standard for this day and age.

We've come a long way and I think people can do it. And, 

Jack: and you've, and, uh, I think you know me well enough to know, like, um, I'm allergic to the like kindergarten teacher energy. At the beginning of a meeting at the, uh, even when talking to kids and I'm not throwing, it's the worst. I'm not trying to say all kindergarten teachers, but the, when you picture a kindergarten, it's great 

Sylvia: when it's actually kindergartners 

Jack: and you can, you know, that's like, it's a, it, it, it, it seems, um, it's, it's like, you're not taking me seriously.

And, and I think kids want to be taken seriously. And so like we can, right now I'm enthusiastic, right? You can hear the enthusiasm in my voice and it's not like a, uh, fake in some way, but it is also, um, you're right. There is a nuance to this and, um, and camp is a great place for the, uh, I have not figured out how to totally teach this outside of camp and you know, this is why I keep going back to camp probably, but what, what is amazing Is that, uh, when you're a staff member at camp, you get to live in that space where the enthusiasm is contagious.

And so when I show up and I bring this level of enthusiasm in a real authentic way, and when I connect with people, um, it's easy to see it. And then you're like, Oh, you know, like I'm the combination of the five people I spend the most time with. And this is what, this is what like people like us do things like this at camp.

And, and what happens is you just like sit up a little straighter and you bring the excitement. And when somebody talks to you, you like look them in the eye and you listen like, uh, yes, we're going to do a ton of training for the staff, but the big training is living in that space. And that's what happens for kids.

And, and you know, this, um, from sending your daughter to camp, it's like, uh, she comes home a little different. She stands up a little taller. Um, wait a minute, I want to hear from you, uh, you love camp, you've worked at camp. We've worked at camp together. Yeah. We've run, we've run camp together. Um, why do you take the risk to send your daughter to camp?

Sylvia: Well,

I believe that all immersive experiences can be life changing. And I think that family is an immersive life experience that changes people. And for me, I've, my life has been exponentially better from having Immersive environments, multiple immersive environments throughout my development so that I could really see what it's like to be fundamentally different.

Who are all these people who behave like this? How does that work? The whole thing, not just like for an hour, but what is it like to live in that new way of being? And then how can I apply just a little taste of that in my regular life? If I don't want to be all Woo woo campy all the time. So I send my daughter to camp because I want her to see what it's like to be a little different.

I want her to watch people interface with each other in a different way. I want her to negotiate with other adults. I want her to, you know, Negotiate with other kids. And I really want her to have a, let me see if I can describe this, almost like a social scaffolding that is healthier than school and camp.

I think really does that. It gives this like social prompting, social scaffolding, almost like social mentoring. That gives people, that gives kids, my daughter, a new option on how to tell a friend that she doesn't want to do what her friend feels like doing. That's a big deal at nine years old. You know, it divides people on the playground.

She didn't want to play what I wanted to play. It can be heartbreaking, but at camp you get to figure it out together with an adult. It's like you have a social partner in your counselor who can help you navigate it in a way that, and certainly in my childhood. Was more unspoken. People weren't talking about decision, make social decision making and social decision making is like the most impactful part of.

Childhood in a lot of ways. Like what happens socially changes people's happiness overall. So I send her to camp because I want her to learn those skills in a safer place than school is, or safer than any of the other environments that I have power over. 

Jack: Um, you know how, like when we do these kinds of podcasty things, we like sort of plan what we're going to say so that we can like say the things that the listeners.

Can, uh, can, can hear them. Can I ask you something that we haven't planned at all? 

Sylvia: Please. 

Jack: Um, and I, I actually don't know the answer to this question. So we, we do a lot of talking to each other. So usually I, I sort of, I'm like, Oh, let me tee you up. Um, uh, you are a, uh, strong and, uh, accomplished, um, woman in business.

You go out and, uh, one of the things you're, uh, literally the best in the world that I've ever seen is running a meeting with a, uh, welcoming, but also firm get stuff done approach, right? Like, and you, you do this with some of the biggest CEOs in the world. Like, 

Sylvia: okay, I'll accept the setup. What's the question.

Jack: So, so, uh, and also you're a little bit allergic to. Um, most of the, like, um, uh, women in the workplace sort of stuff, right? I'm just like, I'm, I 

Sylvia: am, I am, 

Jack: right? And you have a daughter and you want her to grow up to be successful. However, she defines that. And, and I know you're, uh, open to a lot of opportunities for her.

How do you think about setting your daughter up to be successful? Confident and successful in the, in the next step of her life. Like actually it's like 12 steps later. It's like, well, you know, when she, when she finally leaves the van Mierten nest, 

Sylvia: well,

I think my off the cuff answer is that she's going to need a lot of powerful relationships. That's what I needed. And I don't know very many people who have launched successful adulthoods without some significant. relationships. They don't have to be mentors. Specifically or friends specifically or well networked anything, uh, but I think that it would be really hard for her to build a life that she wants to live in without having some, some powerful relationships that are maybe sort of fractional mentor, fractional friend, uh, fractional family, I don't know.

But those, those epic relationships that have formed my life, Where people know me really well, really care about me, have a high standard for me, and, uh, respect my autonomy. The relationships that have guided my life in that way came from summer camp. So I met those people at camp, I worked with them at camp, and I learned who I was by working with them in an environment that scaffolds social nuance.

That scaffolds, um, relationships, along with scaffolding some, I guess, ethics, work ethics, certainly. So I guess one of the other reasons I send her is because I hope that she learns to make relationships in that way, whether or not she pulls her friends from that group. I want her to watch people, Form those relationships and then stay in them, stay loyal to them, stay, uh, Flexible in them throughout the lifespan because that has been such an impactful part of my life.

Jack: It's, I'm thinking of this right now, but you said that, uh, Immersive experiences have really changed who you are and it made me think about like how it's like cool to go to Japan right now. Like, you know, like Japan. Right. It's like Japan is like the cool place to go right now. Um, and, um, All the people I know that have been in Japan, including you, Uh, have come back and told these stories about how the culture there, the hidden curriculum there is different in, in a variety of different ways.

And what you're making me think is like, um, and I've traveled and whatever, but what you're making me think of is like, um, going to summer camp is like the relationship version of going to another country. 

Sylvia: So true. And so well put. Like the healthy, 

Jack: the healthy relationship version. It's like, you get to see what it's like to.

Build connection to see other people building connections in these different ways. Um, and not every camp is the same and, and you've got to pick your camp based on all million different things. But it's interesting to think about like that. I've never heard people selling camp like that. They're not like, this is your, basically you drop into a new world.

It's like, you know, and like, um, but that's what it's like. 

Sylvia: Well, and now that we're as now that culturally, I mean, globally, culturally, we're moving towards, uh, including a little more EQ. Thank you. not in the, not, we kind of went a little over the top, my opinion, uh, but including a little more authenticity, a little more EQ in the normal way that we conduct business.

I think it makes more sense that we would almost have emotional countries to visit or, um, sort of define our microcosms in different ways are obviously our nations geographically pretty big. And so there, we aren't visiting different, um, Um, countries, but we do have pockets of cultures and we make pockets of cultures and we're getting better at that as a species.

One of the ways that I've heard you talk about camp as those microcosms, I guess, is around the idea of decision making. That one of the things kids are immersing themselves in at camp is, uh, new styles of decision making. They're watching the staff. They're watching the structures already in place. Will you tell me a little bit more about that?

How, how does decision making play into the camp culture? Like, why did that get important for you and all the camps that you've created? 

Jack: So, uh, uh, you and I do a lot of work with, um, uh, business leaders outside of camp, right? That's your business. And you bring me in and I, and I help you. You with those kinda things.

We run peer groups and, and those kinda things. And what has become true for me in those coaching practices that I've seen with you and in the the peer groups is that all of that, all of those conversations that we have when A CEO is stressed about whatever and trying to figure things out, what they're, they're trying to do is figure out how to make a.

And they're trying to figure out how to make a decision without complete information, 

Sylvia: always, 

Jack: because if you have complete information, it's pretty, it's you're playing someone else 

Sylvia: below. You would have made the decision, 

Jack: right? And so, uh, the world, I believe. is moving in a direction that will have more people in those kinds of roles, right?

Because AI is going to, and we don't have to make this a whole AI podcast, but the reality is, is that AI is going to take most of the tasks away. And if we have complete information, it's going to be able to give pretty good recommendations on, on what to do most of the time. Right. And so I think decision making is going to continue to be.

Even more, uh, important and potentially the most important skill that, um, our kids will need going into the future, right? It's important now, and I believe it will continue to become even more important. And kids spend most of their time sitting at a desk being told what to do. And, and I'm, uh, this is not a school bashing podcast.

This is a reality of what happens for most kids. Most of the, most of the time, their lives are designed around Basically being told what to do with a few decisions and then all of a sudden they turn 18 and it's like, okay now Do you want to spend tons of money going off to college? Do you want a gap year?

Like it's all of a sudden. It's like you haven't made very many decisions in your life Do you want to make huge ones? 

Sylvia: I know and they have to make them If the first day you always have this great quote that, um, I might try to butcher here where you say that the, you don't want the first day that your kid has to make a lot of decisions about how to spend their time to be the first day they wake up at college and you're not there to help, 

Jack: right?

Like, cause we all, we all wake up someday. And, uh, no one tells us what to do and, and, and that's, sometimes it's the first day of college and, uh, sometimes it's, uh, sometimes you go through college being told what to do most of the time. Right. And so, uh, yeah, I think this decision to me, decision making is the number one skill that I try to get better at every day and believe that kids are, uh, need to get better at, and we get better at stuff by doing it, right.

We get better at making decisions by making them. 

Sylvia: Absolutely. And 

Jack: so, uh, one of the best parts about camp. Is the stakes for the decisions in the grand scheme of things are incredibly low. It's like, did I go to archery or canoeing? Did I choose to sit next to Sarah or Jimmy? 

Sylvia (2): Did I 

Jack: go to the activity with my closest friend?

Because she wanted to, or did I go to the activity I wanted to go to? Because I was excited about the activity. Now, I can't tell you the best way to do that for you, but what I can do is help build the sandbox so that you can practice those decisions. That's what camp does. It's I mean, I think it's, it's, it's actually the best place on the planet for this because it gives kids an opportunity to make a decision.

Then see the impact of their decision and the stakes are low. Again, everything is safe. It, uh, it's like, uh, the best part of what we did when we went out and, uh, played into the streetlights came on and came home, except that there's these cool mentors because the next step is decision, then impact the decision.

And then there's usually some form of reflection. Built into the day at camp whether it's the end of the day or you cry and you sit on a bench And you like figure it out. And again, I'm not encouraging kids to cry and sit on a bench I'm saying the stakes again They matter to that kid and I want to be real with them and sit with them in some of their feelings But like no one got really hurt because we raise the the safety floor So everything is safe and also inside of that reflection is awesome mentorship.

There are Adults who care about you who adults they're 18 19 and like, you know, 36 year olds like me But uh, but they're adults who care about you. So then there's mentorship And then there's learning. So it's like we have this feedback loop. That's constantly spinning a camp. That's choice, impact, uh, mentorship and reflection learning again, new choice.

And we spin it all day long through everything at camp. And, uh, it's what, and what's even better is that everyone loves the learning. It's like ice cream, but if it was good for you. Because it's not boring. It's fun. It's wrapped up in all of these awesome things. And that is, uh, uh, that is something that I, I don't always know how to explain, which is like, uh, I have this belief and I try to fight it all the time that learning should be hard.

You know, like that, like that's what school teaches us and it doesn't have to be 

Sylvia: like, if you're not sweating and squinting your mind as hard as possible, it's way too easy. You should be doing harder things, right? Like that's how I feel. I know. I feel like I was, that's the story I tell myself too, but like, 

Jack: it's not true.

It's not true. It's like, it's like the best exercise is also usually like fun. It's like, go play soccer, play 

Sylvia: basketball for three hours. And if I have to go for a 20 minute run with no headphones, I'm like, 

Jack: Right? You know, at camp is like that. Campus is literally playing basketball. Um, and you're learning in all those moments with people who care about you.

Anyway. So I think decision making is the number one skill of the future and camp is basically a decision making Academy. Uh, but instead of being like, uh, taking notes and reading books about it, you're like loving your life. 

Sylvia: Yeah, it's a completely immersive, lived experience situation. And you, um, in the camps that we've worked at together, you and I found that we shared an obsession with staff, staff training, staff development, staff mentorship, and that makes sense because they do all the things, just like we said, you know, I'm going to sit, sit all year round and have big ideas, but they're the ones that actually do it.

Just like the employees of any company are the ones actually doing the thing. At camp, what have you found to be some of the techniques that help the staff? And I know we're talking about them like they're adults, but like you mentioned, they're, they're 18, 19, 20, sometimes the like really mature ones are 24.

How do you get all of this, like somewhat edgy information about child development into their minds and into the, the like practice of camp? Do they have to know it all? How does the program support it? Talk to me about that. 

Jack: Well, uh, first of all, um, I'm a millennial. We were the worst. You know what I mean?

I've talked to some gen X folks. I heard they were the worst. Certainly boomers were the worst. And now right now, Jen, uh, Gen Z, they're the worst. Alpha will be the worst eventually. 

Sylvia: Yeah, I totally agree. And, um, and hopefully it will just continue to get worse because the older I get, the more I like feeling like, no, these guys are really the worst.

Jack: It's why I get it. I get it. Young people, we make mistakes. I don't know, but like, we love to throw the current generation under the bus. It's what I do. It's so 

Sylvia: comforting. 

Jack: And then what happens is they get to camp and they are literally the most responsible humans on the planet. And they, I 

Sylvia: know 

Jack: they work 24 hours a day and, 

Sylvia: and they shine their big hearts and big brains, just shine.

The kids just, I utilize them instantly. And 

Jack: so, uh, uh, I want to, first of all, say that, uh, the huge majority of it. Is that we hire incredible 18 to 22 year olds to be awesome. 

Sylvia: And the awesome ones want to come to camp and 

Jack: they want to come to camp. They want to work hard. They want to work hard. They want to care.

They want to connect. It's, I mean, it's so fun. Like it's all the things that we talked about and we've got to fight a little bit with like, uh, is it good for your career and all that kind of stuff. And there's, we can talk about that. But uh, mostly the trick is find awesome people. And create a culture where awesome stuff happens.

I mean, uh, then there's all kinds of techniques, but the first step is give awesome people space to be awesome. And mostly that's the big hurdle. And camp is the best place 

Sylvia: to find it. I just want to revisit that idea. Get the awesome people and make space for them to be awesome. Pretty much sums up everyone's recruiting strategy.

Jack: And, and one of the great parts about camp is, uh, you're actually recruiting for like a short chunk 

Sylvia (2): so 

Jack: you can get people to be awesome. And, uh, the feedback loop is pretty quick. You know, it's like if you hire somebody awesome to work at your company. It's a lot of work to make it. So they don't work at your company anymore.

If they end up not being awesome, right at camp, it's like pretty quick. They come for the summer. And so you're building this culture that quickly builds more and more awesome people, attracts more and more awesome people and the best camps, what they have is a feedback loop where you're awesome and you come to camp and you tell your friends about how awesome camp is and that they come to camp.

Sylvia: That makes me think about something I've been wanting to ask you about that, again, I have not prepped, we have not prepped for. Oh God. Story of our lives, Jack. So I want to ask you about mediocrity because I know you pretty much hate it. You're you're bored by it. You're you accept it as an like necessary evil, but you'd prefer to step over it and pretend it's not there or eliminate it and in Camping the short time frame for like you get to it's so iterative.

Can you talk about how? How you think about mediocrity at camp and how, if I'm like, I was talking about why I send my daughter to camp and I think I don't want to send her to a mediocre. I think that's highly possible. In fact, probable. If I just go on the internet, every camp website is like, we're great, which makes me think they're all mediocre.

So how do you tell if a camp is mediocre or great? And then how do you make. A camp that you're involved with be great because you haven't run any mediocre camps. And I say that as someone who's, who's seen a lot of camps. And none of yours are mediocre. How do you, how can you tell the difference and how do you do that?

Jack: Well, so, uh, first I want to give camp a credit in, in general to, uh, the idea of summer camp is, uh, the system is pretty good to create great relationships to be healthy. Like the idea of camp. Is just the bar so much starts so much higher. 

Sylvia: That's true. Which is why they can look exactly the same as they did in the thirties still today, because it was already a great idea.

Jack: And so, so, uh, so going to campus is, is, is most camps are already quite good. Right. It just, because. It is, uh, kids spending time with other kids in the woods. Uh, we've broken the monopoly of, of college age students being able to spend time with young people, all these things that is an unfair advantage that camp has that almost nowhere else on the planet has.

So, so already camps tend to be a great place. I just want to make sure that that is clear. Uh, now, uh, you have to make sure the campus is safe. If you're, if you're choosing where to send your daughter, you've got to make sure the campus safe. How do you do that? Is it, uh, I don't know. 

Sylvia: Other parent recommendations, 

Jack: other parent recommended your, what you're not 

Sylvia: going to do 

Jack: is go through their state, uh, regulations.

Like every state has different regulations. Um, the ACA has regulated American camp association. 

Sylvia: Certainly. I've never done that with any camp, looked up their regs and then compared it to the state regs to see if they're meeting it. 

Jack: And that is not how most people are going to do that. So what, what most.

What I, what I would look for, uh, to find, figure out if the camp is safe is really three things. One, uh, is do their, um, digital assets, does the stuff they put out on the internet, Look Like they they put thought and care into it, right? And that's the first place you're gonna start is is Is their their their website their social media that kind of stuff like did they did they care enough to make that stuff?

approachable and thoughtful and and and engaging Second thing like you said is can I talk to some other families that have gone to the camp? That, uh, love the camp, those kinds of things. So you're going to read reviews on the internet. Everything starts on the internet. Like as much as I'm an in person person, I love camp because it's in person.

It all starts on the internet. But then, you know, ask the camp director, can I speak with, uh, a parent who already sent their kid to camp? Like, can I talk with some alumni who, how can you get in touch with some people who can tell you for real? And, and the real version of this, because every camp is a little different, right?

And then the last part is, um, and this is the most important part, is who runs the camp? 

Sylvia (2): Hmm. 

Jack: And, um, like, uh, do you think that person? Is inspirational for your child in a way that you want your child to be inspired by. 

Sylvia: I love that. If the camp, the people who run the camp are inspired in a way that I want my kid are inspiring in a way I want my kid to be inspired.

Jack: Because, uh, it's very, very likely. That the person who runs the camps inspirational level is going to trickle into the rest of everything that's happening. Right. So do you want, yeah, just like any business. So do you want Greta to spend time your daughter with a bunch of people who are directionally thinking the same way and caring the same way and excited and those kinds of things.

Now, what that's going to look like for each person is different, right? So like, um, like I am, uh, like probably a little bit more grounded, a little bit less focused on like. Perfect SAT scores, um, a little bit more like energetic and, um, uh, uh, um, uh, uh, silly than, uh, some other camp directors you might find.

I have friends that are, um, you know, like that run great camps that are like more buttoned up. Maybe they're great sports, all those kinds of things. Right. So there's plenty of inspirational people that run really great camps. Meet the people that are in charge. If you're inspired by them and you think your kids will be inspired by them, it's very likely that that's the camp for, um, for you.

And that's like, that makes my job challenging because it's like, now I have to go figure out what does inspirational mean and how do I keep all the operational stuff on track? But that's the job of every CEO. That's the job of every person who runs any business is be inspiring in some way and make sure that all the, uh, I's are dotted and the T's are crossed.

That's 

Sylvia: Yes, and the way you say that makes it sound like anyone who would run a youth organization or any human based organization would think about it that way, but they really don't. Like, when I If you're lucky enough to be able to choose a school for your kid, a lot of times we're looking at the curriculum and the values and the everything.

And yet if there's somebody in charge who the way they manifest those things doesn't match how I would like them to be manifested, then it doesn't matter that the website says all the words I care about. And so I think what you're saying, and, and then there's many organizations that just don't do it at all.

Like a public school. Isn't necessarily doing that because they're, they're not, um, entirely supposed to be doing that and a camp. I think in some ways it's almost more important at camp because the curriculum isn't academic and it's less check markable, check boxable, the curriculum at camp, partly because we haven't codified the emotional curriculum for anyone, but camp is the leading edge of that.

And. I'm excited to see the way that you in particular bring that vibe. How do we bring that high emotion, high motivation part to the camps that, that you run, um, overall, would you say, Jack, what is it about you in particular? That made you, that made you take this career track. Like you, you're someone who could take your enthusiasm, your energy, your intellect, your engineering background, your business background, and you can make almost any business you do successful.

You know, we talk about that a lot. You, we could buy a sticker company and crush it. You could buy a laundromat and crush it. You could, um, You know, probably buy a hobby shop. Who cares what you would crush it? Um, what is it about camp? Why do you want to crush it at camp? I guess. Why, why does that feel like you want to knock it out of the park there in particular?

Jack: Well, first of all, thanks for saying nice things about me. 

Sylvia: Dow shucks. 

Jack: Um, your, your mom taught me that, uh, well, she taught your, your daughter actually, uh, that, uh, when you get a compliment, you have two choices, uh, and your mom is like this awesome, uh, Midwest mom, uh, and I'll answer your question in a second, uh, but I, I heard your daughter, uh, get a compliment about something she had drawn and, um, someone said like, um, I love your, I love your drawing.

And Greta like was like, Oh, it's not that good. It's not that good. And, uh, your Bob, like, just like interrupted her and your mom is like, just like you, she's like firm, but kind, you know? And she said, Greta, when someone gives you a compliment, you have two choices. You can either say thank you or. Oh, shucks.

And, uh, so I haven't really pulled off, oh, shucks that often, unless I can do that whole story so that, that I could say, oh, shucks. 

Sylvia: But you know, the, the end of that story is that if you choose anything beyond some version of thank you or ah, shucks. What you're really doing is just prolonging the compliment window.

Because if you push back on the compliment, according to Grand Jan, then they have to say more and more and more of them, until eventually you're even more embarrassed to say your thank you or your aw shucks. So really, if you're embarrassed about the compliments, the aw shucks or the thanks is the quickest duck out from the situation.

Jack: And, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, I just told you I'm trying to be better at making decisions. And, uh, a decision that I've made is to follow GrandJan's advice, um, and share that story with kids, uh, as they think about, um, what that can look like. Um, why do I care about camp? Why do I choose to, to, to spend my time thinking about camp?

Um, it feels good. I mean, I'm going to give you a little longer answer too, but like for me, it feels so good. I love being at camp. It's the, it's all of those things that it is for kids. It's inspirational and it's a community and it's, uh, it's the place where I learned the most every year. Um, for me, I love being there.

I love the, I love the, The experience, 

Sylvia: it changes my life every year, even now. Yeah. 

Jack: And so, um, I'm going to tell you why I care about it, uh, because of the other impact because, uh, um, I think about the world through like a very, um, uh, self determination theory lens, right? So like, uh, self determination theory is, is this idea that people are motivated and happy when their physical and psychological needs are met.

Physical needs. You understand psychological needs, uh, according to Edward DC and Richard Ryan, who are these guys from the university of Rochester, who built this whole thing up are, um, autonomy, belonging, and competence, right? So when we feel choiceful, when we feel like the people around us care about us and we care about them.

And when we feel like the choices that we make matter, then we continue to be more creative. We continue to be more, um, engaged and thoughtful and those kinds of things. Right. And so of course, camp does this for kids. Like everything that we do at camp is through the lens of. How can, uh, it be through this self determination lens where kids are, are choiceful?

Um, and not that that means that they get to choose every single thing, right? Like, uh, I want to fly to Hawaii, um, but I don't want to go through TSA. I choose I'm gonna choose to go through TSA because it's worth it for me to get to the other things and kids make those Choices all the time, right? It's worth it to listen to the rules at archery to be able to do archery Because it's needed for archery to happen, right?

So it's not that like I don't mean choiceful like we just choose everything all the time Lord of the Flies It is just that we choose to go through something to get something else often. That's a that's a That's what we do in life. Um, and then, uh, so then belonging, uh, very clearly camp is a place that supports belonging and we do a ton of work to make this happen.

And you asked about staff, like staff are a big part of that. Like how do the staff support the kids to create the sense of belonging and how do we make the staff feel like they belong so that, uh, it's like the kids are just coming a little bit later to this awesome party that is also educational and thoughtful and all these things.

And then competence, um, there's a lot of different ways to think about this at camp for me. Uh, competence is focusing on skills like decision making, um, creativity, um, uh, like collaboration. These, like, these are the skills that I believe are the most important to get better at for the future. And not just, I believe this is like what, uh, you know, uh, the partnership for 21st century skills, like there's all these, 

Sylvia: it matches all the most recent childhood research.

Jack: This is what Google needs to do. This is what Google needs. Uh, this is what open AI needs. This is what they all need. And, uh, anyway, um, so, uh, but why do I care is because for me, I get to live in that environment where the choices that I make matter, that I'm in a community of people that matter and that hopefully the impact of me building a space like that, and then participating fully in that space.

Is inspiring for the next generation of kids who are going to go out and make more of these choices to build a more self determined world where more people feel like they have the ability to make choices, where they feel like they belong, where they feel like the choices that they make matter because, um, there's a incredible lack of purpose.

Among so many people today like I I'm the luckiest guy in the world I get to wake up every day and care about what I do and believe that the choices I make matter That feedback is like, Oh my gosh, I have purpose. I, I matter to the world, right? With people like you and, and, and my family and so many other people that like, that care about me.

And I'm lucky enough to be able to choose most of what I do most of the time. Right. So, uh, incredible for me. I love that. I, I hope that, uh, camp is a small ripple. To let more and more kids have more and more opportunities to live the version of their self-determined life that lets them do that. And, and what is that gonna look like?

I, it looks different for you, right? Like you and I, uh, love each other so much. We, we care about each other tro much. Like, uh, I come to Thanksgiving, like, uh, I like . You know what I mean? Like, 

Sylvia: yeah. We're family. 

Jack: Um, 

Sylvia: become, we have become friend family. 

Jack: And your, the, the choices you make are different than the choices that I make.

Awesome. Because you're also getting to wake up every day with purpose, with community, with choice. And, um, and so I want more kids to have that opportunity. I want more kids to be able to grow up and, and have that, but also get to like, um, I don't believe that, uh, you can just wait Like, I don't think that, uh, there's a, I might be willing to, to do this if I believed that it would work, where it was a sort of, um, uh, uh, study hard, only focus on, uh, keeping your head down.

And then eventually there's a payoff that is a more self determined life. I think there's a misquote to Gandhi that there's like, that's like, uh, there's no path to peace. Peace is, peace is the path. Right. Like, um, I don't think that there's like a, you gotta, you gotta get reps on this. You don't just like, you don't get to run a marathon because you just wake up and run a marathon.

You're like, You got to go run a mile and get off the couch and buy the sneakers. 

Sylvia: Dang it. Get off the couch. I 

Jack: know. 

Sylvia: Um, well, you know, I like how you've centered that on the choice and autonomy piece because I do think that in all of the businesses that I've run since being a summer camp counselor or summer camp director or owner, each one of them is better because I did that because I was in an environment that where I could be choiceful and valued and where the way that we are to each other.

Matters, but it doesn't fake matter. It matters because that's the whole project. And so every business I've done has been better because of that and not better because I threw water balloons or like wore a silly costume, uh, but better because I felt brave. To be silly and to try something new or better because, uh, somebody helped me when I didn't think that they would or that I deserved it or whatever.

Those formative lessons changed everything about the way that I run stuff. So 

Jack: I agree. And camp has this hard, um, it has a branding hurdle. Is like, um, in, in China they call, uh, camp, camp education. Like the word for camp is camp education because their school system is so focused on outcomes. Um, they're like sort of better at the school system that we say we want in some ways.

Uh, but like, because our school system still has some room for all of this, like creativity and innovation just in the cracks, um, We, uh, we still create the most innovative companies in the world in the U. S. and, and that kind of thing. So, um, but they call it camp education in, in China, uh, in some ways I think to push back against this problem that camp has, which is like, we don't believe that fun should be so good for you.

We as as maybe it's a Puritan work ethic or I don't know what it is about our And I've read a lot of stuff with theories on this but we don't we don't believe that play should be good for you We we don't 

Sylvia: you're right. The whole industry kind of has that a stigma like it's childish. Yeah, and awesome for childlike.

We prefer childlike. Thank you. We prefer fun And 

Jack: I get it I get it, except like the play is Peter Gray says play isn't recess from education play is education and, uh, that's not what the world looks like for most kids, most of the time. And so if camp is the only place that we can have this old neighborhood style, but instead of just being an old neighborhood, there's also awesome tennis and swimming and basketball and incredible mentors.

It's like, um, it's the absolute level up. It's hard to, um, I sit with the business leaders that you send me to go talk to. Right. Like you're like, all right, Jack, I need you to go to this manufacturing company and help their executive team, um, work through a problem. You send me there. This is a real story of things that happen.

You send me there and I go in and have to do so much, uh, weird container building to be able to say out loud that I run summer camp with that group because the, I'm afraid, and I care about this and I'm impassioned about it. And I'll look into the camera and tell you that summer camp is the most important thing on the planet.

I'm afraid that if I go in there and say that I run summer camp, they won't take it seriously. 

Sylvia: Yeah. And a lot of times you're right to worry about that because they wouldn't. And I do hope that gets changed because having run summer camps, it is not a joke of a business. Like you've got hundreds of other people's kids there.

So that alone makes it, somebody needs to take it seriously. But I agree with you. And I guess thinking about what you said about outcomes is making me hope that maybe there's a chance that. The way that you're thinking about summer camp and measuring different outcomes that we could all edge closer towards having those outcomes become more of the common benchmarks or lexicon around the emotional intelligence or social nuance that, that we know is how the work gets done.

Once you're an adult and you're working in a company is it doesn't matter if you know everything about physics that there is to know. If you're a total jerk at work, the project is not coming to completion. And so as expert as anyone could be in the content of work, of school, if they don't have the social piece to go with it, they are more, their life becomes more limited.

Their choices are more limited and they're more dependent on other people noticing their value instead of finding environments where they can insert value. And I think that would be so, so disappointing. So. I guess to close, I'd like to hear this is Jack, where do you think the most value comes out of summer camp for the camper?

So I'm a camper. I'm coming to your camp. What do you think is the most valuable potential part of that experience? Not just for me, for everyone.

Jack: Summer camp is the business of change. It is, you come in as Jack 1. 0 or even 2. 0 or 12. 0 and you leave as Jack, uh, 16. 0, right? You, and what happens in that black box is Uh, in the camp world, uh, everyone likes to talk about like camp magic. And it's our job as camp directors to get on podcasts like this and try to, uh, uh, explain what happens in that black box.

And it's challenging because camp is the business of change. And what change looks like for me when I come to camp is inherently an Importantly different than what it looks like for you. However, we can draw some lines because that's like the consultant answer. That's like, it depends. Uh, which I know you, uh, you like to say, uh, and so what happens in that black box?

What does the change look like? What I hope that it looks like is that kids come in and they get to step into the immersive environment. That is a different world. Where they can be inspired to believe that more is possible for them. And, uh, you don't know that you're living at a four until you experience what a 12 looks like.

Right. You don't, you, uh, you don't know that you're not as good at basketball. As LeBron, if you only ever play with the kids in your neighborhood. And so coming to camp, you get to see what is possible with people that are just a little bit older than you, or just a little bit different from you in, in whatever way.

Right. So like I think about in my life, I've learned so much from you, right. You're a really good friend of mine. And in many ways, you're like a little ahead of me on a handful of things. Right. And maybe I'm a little ahead of you on a handful of other things, but like I get to learn from you because you're a little ahead of me.

And I camp, that's what happens because camp has this opportunity. It's unfair advantage is these exceptional, thoughtful 18 year olds that nine year olds get to look up to. And it's different. I try to be cool. I'm so much less cool now than I was at 18. Uh, like the pink hat that I wore backwards and the long hair for some reason, uh, eight year olds were like, that guy's so cool.

And now they're like, that's pretty cool. I'm still, I'm still like pretty cool. But I'm not like, I'm not like 18. I'm not 

Sylvia: cool anymore. I'm 

Jack: not 18 year old Jack cool. Okay. Um, and I'm getting less cool every day. And, um, that's okay because, uh, what camp does is create a space for, for kids to see what's inspirational and relatable, right?

Because. Even more important than that, because there's other people that are inspirational, right? Like Taylor Swift or, or, or, uh, whatever these people that, that, uh, that kids might look up to, um, at camp, Taylor Swift is actually just like. Taylor Smith and she's your daughter's counselor who does sing at the, uh, at the fest at the music festival that that camp puts on and it's incredible and everyone cheers and it's amazing.

But then when your daughter is homesick later that night. Taylor Smith is sitting with her and helping her through that problem. And that inspiration and relatability is what I think creates the opportunity for growth for kids, right? And so it's not, um, it's not that I hope that Greta comes to camp. And gets exactly the same things that I got out of camp.

It's that I hope that Greta gets to, comes to camp and has as many opportunities for real change for her to happen. So that she can be, uh, stronger and more confident and more thoughtful in these ways that are gonna happen for her. 

Sylvia: Yeah. Like a seismic shift. She's safe enough to make a seismic shift there.

Jack: And it takes time. It takes time. Like we sell camp as like, come for, for a summer and honestly, like for me and you, it's taken years of camp. It's a, it's a going to camp as kids for seven, eight summers. It 

Sylvia: changes my life every time. 

Jack: And so 

Sylvia: cumulatively, it's set me on an entirely different path. 

Jack: And I don't think there's quick fixes in the world for almost anything.

It's like, you know what I mean? Like if you want to run a marathon again, it's like you go on one run and that's the start. of building a habit and going to camp is the start of building a habit to see the world a little bit differently to go and get the recharge, um, uh, for, for the next, for the next year, for the next year, for the next year.

And for me, I'm addicted and I'll be back every summer, uh, for the rest of my life. You know, I tried to get out of the camp world for a while. I lived in my business costume and now I, I put on my business costume for, for some business things. And then I get to go back and wear tie dye and stand on picnic tables and jump in the lake.

And I love it. 

Sylvia: And work at the healthiest place in the world. 

Jack: and work at the healthiest place in the world. 

Sylvia: Thank you. 

Jack: Thank you.